Episode 9: ASK THE EXPERT - How Traditional Chinese Medicine and Acupuncture Can Help You Conceive with Dr. Mimi Le, DACM of Better Balance

About This Episode:

Today we talk about how the philosophy and practice of Traditional Chinese Medicine may impact your fertility.  I have Dr. Mimi Le, DACM of Better Balance Acupuncture shares with us her knowledge of how acupuncture can impact your fertility journey.  

During this episode we talk about some of the basics and philosophy behind Chinese Medicine and the recommendations for timing during your fertility cycles.  Take a listen to see if this may be helpful for you.  

Research mentioned by Dr. Mimi (I have not read any of these studies; however, they were mentioned by Dr Mimi and she provided links):

• Journal of alternative and complementary medicine . ⁠https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6421999/⁠

• Fertility and Sterility:  ⁠https://www.fertstert.org/article/S0015-0282(01)03273-3/pdf⁠

• Reproductive Biomedicine:  ⁠https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4458185/pdf/nihms667103.pdf⁠

Additional Research Resources:

• http://www.thefertilesoulcefp.org/

Mentioned in this episode:  

The Infertility Cure by Randine Lewis, PhD - ⁠https://amzn.to/3Dw8mb6⁠

Dr. Aimee Egg Whisperer:  ⁠https://www.instagram.com/eggwhisperer/⁠

Dr. Zaher Merhi:  ⁠https://www.instagram.com/dr_merhi/⁠

Dr. Allison Rodgers:  ⁠https://www.instagram.com/dr.allison.rodgers/⁠

Alease the Embryologist:  ⁠https://www.instagram.com/alease_the_embryologist/⁠

Lucky Baby Lam: ⁠ https://www.instagram.com/luckybabylam/⁠

Cute4Fertility:  ⁠https://www.instagram.com/cute4fertility/⁠

Infertility Man:  ⁠https://www.instagram.com/infertilityman/⁠

Awakening Worth:  ⁠https://www.instagram.com/awakening.worth/⁠

Find an acupuncturist who specializes in fertility here:  ⁠www.ABORM.org⁠

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Episode Transcript:

0:06

Hi and welcome to the 40 and infertile podcast.

I'm your host Victoria at 40 and infertile on Instagram.

I'm a fellow IVF patient and this is where I share with you my fertility journey in my late 30s and 40s.

While also providing you information to minimize your fertility struggles later in life.

0:29

Alright guys, this is episode 9 and episode 9 s all about acupuncture and I'm going to warn you.

This is a long one so I'm sorry we had a lot of great questions coming in and I wanted to make sure they all got answered and it was an interesting topic.

0:45

So you might have to pause this one a few times while you're listening and take a break.

But today, I have dr.

Me Melia.

Traditional Chinese medicine practitioner Her balance acupuncture that's based out of here in California.

And the reason why I wanted to do this topic is because for a long time, I had wanted to know more about acupuncture and I want to know how it could help us in our fertility.

1:10

So when I saw doctor, maybe I thought why not go to the source.

So she agreed to be on the show and today, we talked about the philosophy of Eastern medicine, and acupuncture, and our fertility, and why it might be helpful.

We talked about some data behind acupuncture and It can help us through an IVF cycle, or an IUI cycle and what to look for in an acupuncturist, when you're finding one on your own.

1:36

For those of you who are wanting more information, if you want to dig deeper, there's actually a really great book, it's called the infertility Cure by Randy Lewis PhD and I will link that in the description for you and it's a really great book.

1:51

She the author, Randy Lewis.

She actually started out in Western medicine, so she went to medical school and then after some time she was experiencing her own fertility issues, and she actually switched gears and then started to practice in the The Eastern medicine track and she actually went to China and studied acupuncture and so she has a lot of great recommendations for herbal supplements and diet recommendations in the book.

2:15

She talks about different herbs, she talks about deficiencies.

So she has these questionnaires that you fill out.

And then you can kind of see what you might be deficient in based on her questionnaire.

And so, I think even in there that she might even talk about some acupuncture points.

2:33

So you might be able to look at And then bring it to your own, traditional Chinese medicine practitioner or your acupuncturist and say, Hey, you know, I read this book and, you know, based on this questionnaire, it says I might have this and you can see what their thoughts are.

And, and maybe, you know, come up with a plan together for some of your acupuncture points.

2:52

So I like the book.

It's been a while since I've read it.

I'm reading it again now that I'm kind of get trying to get back into acupuncture a little bit more often some reading about a little bit more so I can kind of get A little bit more in depth of knowledge.

But if acupuncture is something that's been on your mind and something you want to know more about, then this might be a good good read for you.

3:16

As always, I'm not a physician in the information.

I'm providing you today is for educational and informational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional medical advice.

So always make sure that you consult with your own fertility doctor before choosing any medical therapies that might affect your fertility, particularly when you're in.

3:35

I go on you're thinking about adding like herbal supplements and things like that.

It's really important that you check with them to make sure there's no interactions or anything like that, that they need to be mindful of some fertility.

Doctors don't want you on any of these herbal supplements while you're in a cycle.

So just make sure that you check with your fertility doctor before you make those decisions.

3:55

As you know, every person situation is unique.

So it is super vital that you discuss your personal situation with your own fertility, doctor, to decide.

What's the best course of action for you.

Okay, so coming up, I have a lot of really amazing guests coming on and I'm so so excited about it.

4:13

So of course, I have the Amazing dr.

Amy, the egg whisper and also amazing dr.

Murphy's coming back and dr.

Allison Rogers, who's super awesome.

She has these really great videos on her feed about sperm.

So she does really really great videos where she shows you like, what good sperm looks like.

4:32

And then she also has these great videos where she and her daughter.

Together about some topics.

And it's, it's a really nice thing to kind of see to incorporate the younger generation to.

So they kind of understand how things work because I think that's kind of how we got to where we are, is that there are things that we never heard or never knew.

4:50

So this is actually nice where it's coming from the both of them.

I also have a lease the embryologist.

So she's going to be on to kind of share, some of the behind-the-scenes stuff in the IVF lab and some of her own own experiences that she seen.

5:07

So I think that will be a lot of fun too and that'll probably be a multi-part series.

I also have some Warriors coming on to share their stories of Lucky baby lamb.

If you don't follow her you should follow her.

She's amazing.

She has so much information to share and her experiences to she's just a wonderful human and if you don't follow her, she's just about like one of the best supporters you'll ever have.

5:35

In your inner circle so she's really great.

So she'll be on to share her story.

Her recommendations her tips and suggestions cute for fertility.

He's coming back this time.

She's bringing her hubby and we're going to talk about what the IVF and infertility experiences like from the male Partners perspective.

5:55

I think sometimes you know our male Partners on the other end of things maybe don't know how to feel or you know.

Don't know what that experience is like for other males since we don't really talk about it.

So I want to make sure that that was on.

6:12

So we could share that.

And I'm going to have infertility, man.

I don't know if you guys have seen the post from him, but he is actually a really great voice for those suffering with male Factor infertility and he shares his story along with his wife.

6:29

And so, you know, I wanted to make sure that we included those who are experiencing Male Factor infertility because we're kind of all on the same journey together and it's no fun at all.

But I think it's good to have different voices kind of share their experiences.

6:46

So he'll be on later this month and we also have Cherie Johnson, she talks about the childless life and what that's like and if that's something that is on your path, then we talk more about that and what it might mean.

7:02

And if that's the path for you, then kind of some steps we can do to make that experience as best as possible.

So I'm super excited.

I have a lot of amazing people coming on and I'm just so grateful for their generosity in sharing their time with me.

And thank you all for being here and listening as well and helping make this happen, okay?

7:23

It's already a really long episode that's why I'm talking really fast you know the drill share review.

Keep sending me questions and suggestions you know it's how I can make this better for you.

It's how I can make sure I present the information that Want and need is if you keep asking questions and keep making suggestions and, you know, if you have a question, it's very, very likely that someone else also has that question.

7:46

So if you ask you're not just helping yourself, you're helping someone else.

Okay?

All right, we got all that out of the way.

I hope you guys enjoy this episode.

It's really long.

I know, I'm sorry, but it has a lot of good information.

Hopefully you guys get a lot out of it and let's do this.

8:15

Okay, welcome to the show, dr.

Me melee, she is an acupuncturist at a Sacramento.

California and dr.

Mimi, thanks so much for joining us today.

No, thank you for having me.

Yeah, I'm so excited to talk to you.

I I know dr.

8:31

Me me, because she's my acupuncturist.

Yeah, I have.

Yeah, I have the pleasure of seeing her on a semi-regular basis.

I'll be completely honest, I don't come as much as I probably should.

But what kind of tap into that too?

8:46

Will talk about that a little bit more, but I just kind of wanted to start off with how you actually got into the fertility side of acupuncture.

So how did you find yourself working with women and fertility?

Oh, it's a full circle.

I mean, I knew I always wanted to be in some form of health care.

9:04

I just didn't know what.

And, you know, I didn't know what path to take and, of course, my parents gave me the usual options of either be a dentist pharmacist or nurse.

First, I love Asian descent, of course so.

Yeah.

So that's the usual options but I knew that wasn't something for me.

9:21

I had I knew there was something more to just being those usual Healthcare professions which are great obviously.

But I wanted something with more like meaningful hearing people and also having the opportunity to have a work-life balance, there's some importance to that as well.

9:39

And it took me a while to figure out really what I wanted to do.

I actually Study to get my aesthetician license because I worked in Korean Cosmetic Company before.

And I during the esthetician course, I actually learned something about like face mapping and base mapping that that means that there's a correlation between the person's face and an internal health and then so when we look at a person's face so you can kind of tell like maybe there's certain internal health issues that we should address by just looking at the skin, discoloration wrinkles or acne.

10:14

In the certain area, that's how you.

And I thought that was fascinating because it was so accurate, and I just thought I should look more into it.

Of course, the foundation of Faith mapping is Chinese medicine and I grew up around Chinese medicine, throughout my whole life.

10:31

I mean, my mom used to force-feed me, like herbal concoctions, and then whenever I was sick, I would get cupping, but I never really thought of it as like a profession.

I just thought was kind of cool, sort of like a folk medicine.

And I mean it's been used around for centuries and I know it works because it worked on me.

10:51

I was actually a very sickly kid growing up, and every time I got it done, I felt amazing.

And so, when I kind of learned about faith mapping, I was like, oh, there's something to this, it sounds fascinating.

And so I kind of looked up Barry.

11:07

What is Chinese medicine that I realized I tried as medicine is so much more modernized now, it's like It helps with so much more things than just you know, tummy ache or like some muscle soreness and so I actually realized it was universities and I went to like a kind of like an open house to kind of check it out and talk to some teachers and professors and I was hooked, I was amazed.

11:33

It worked so well and so I jump head in.

I loved it and I'm still learning to this day.

Hmm.

Yeah.

So how did you work?

Your way into fertility.

Well, actually, I was kind of going through Chinese medicine.

11:51

And of course, I was worried about my female Health, right?

Like, I always had cramps, I had low back pain whenever had my period, I felt fatigued and I thought that was normal.

That's something like every woman goes through, but that was kind of like a woman her say and then, but then going through school, I realized that was not normal at all.

12:13

I realized that that's not someone like that's not something, a healthy person would go through actually.

And so, while going through Chinese medicine school, I actually helped with my health.

I don't have allergies anymore, ever since then my reproductive health is so much better.

12:30

I don't have cramps anymore, Miner fatigue, depending on how I work myself, each month, but I just total change.

After a few months of trying to set us in school, and actually getting acupuncture and herbal treatment for myself.

And that's Kind of where the my curiosity grew of my.

12:49

Okay.

Well, you know, women's health is so complex.

How can I help other people with these issues?

Because I know I didn't know that this was, you know, not normal.

Like a lot of women still don't know that this is not normal to feel this way.

And so how do I actually incorporate that and, you know, help other people.

13:08

And so I actually had these professions that, that put me under their wing and they're like professionals and We specialize in women's health in the Bay Area and I learned a lot from them and how to treat certain issues under them and from then on I was in Chinese medicine for fertility health and I worked a lot with the IDF in the Bay Area.

13:30

So that's where I get my experience from.

Yeah now I so I think there's one thing that we should probably talk about and I think there's a lot of maybe a known with how Acupuncture helps fertility.

13:47

So maybe let's start with like the difference between like Eastern philosophy, of medicine and Western philosophy of medicine and you can correct me if I'm wrong.

I am not a practitioner of Eastern medicine.

So please tell me if I'm like mistaken, but as far as I understand Western, philosophy of medicine is like structure and function.

14:09

If there's something wrong with this structure, it's not functioning correctly.

You go in and fix that structure, right?

And Then in eastern philosophy of medicine.

As I understand it.

It's a balance of energy, right?

The yin-yang.

Yeah.

And the kind of like, I forget, it's like the Life Energy, right?

14:28

That you have running through, can you explain that a little bit more?

Yeah, so the difference between Western and Eastern medicine, Western kind of is divided into multiple categories, right?

If you, if you had a head head issue, you'd actually go to like a doctor that specializes in head injuries.

14:46

Whatever or cardiovascular disease, you go to cardiovascular doctor in Chinese medicine or Eastern medicine.

We actually look at everything as a whole.

Why are you feeling this way?

How are we going to help you balance yourself?

We don't look at you differently.

Like by Parts we're actually looking at you as a whole and to treat that we really work closely with nervous system or the central nervous system to balance it out and help your body actually heal itself.

15:13

We actually don't have any magic to us or anything.

NG but we actually help to stimulate certain acupuncture points that help you.

Let your body know that it needs to heal this area using its natural healing ability.

And how we do that is work with blood circulation, balance of hormones, and you're helping me fire, neurotransmitter to release serotonin and other hormones to kind of help with pain relief and inflammation in the body.

15:40

So, there's multiple different ways that we can do it, but that's kind of how Eastern medicine look.

As everything we look at everything as a whole.

Okay?

And then as far as acupuncture and fertility, how does acupuncture help fertility?

15:58

Um, so basically acupuncture really works with the hypothalamus pituitary, ovarian access kind of developer Forum on itself.

We help to lower the inflammation, lower stress levels nourish follicular growth by improving blood.

16:15

Boats the ovaries or your lower abdomen.

We help increase endometrial lining which is very important if you're going through IVF or trying to get pregnant or we also help to increase cervical mucus regulating like healthy operation to increasing libido which is also very important if you're trying to conceive as well and not just working with female Health but also with male Health you know a lot of men actually come in Treatment for like maybe low sperm count or morphology issues, we can help with that as well.

16:53

And how we do this is when we actually use acupuncture.

It stimulates the central nervous system to release chemicals into the muscles and spinal cord, and the Brain naturally, the bio chemicals that stimulate the body's natural.

Healing ability to group physical and emotional well-being.

17:11

It's basically, we're just kind of guiding the body to heal itself and And by reducing inflammation, improve blood circulation and that's basically how it works.

If we don't treat everything separately but we treat everything as a whole.

So even if we're maybe working on you for fertility, it might actually help you with, like, maybe stress.

17:32

But you'd actually feel a lot more calmer during treatments or during treatment throughout your whole life.

So, that's usually how it works.

So, and not, Not everyone gets the same kind of protocol, right?

17:49

It depends on where you're struggling.

So it's not like every patient who has like diminished ovarian reserve.

Or you know it has a low egg count or something is going to get the same protocol.

It depends on your evaluation because I know and acupuncturist I've seen in the past, they check your tongue, they check your pulse.

18:09

So, what's going on?

When you evaluate the pulse and look at the tongue and that sort of thing?

The great thing about Chinese medicine is you treat the person not like a protocol like nobody gets like a set set of points like you know, maybe you're coming in for PCOS or the next person coming in for low amh.

18:28

We're not going to State use the same treatment for each person because we know that we need to actually make a whole new protocol for this person because that's how it works.

You're getting a whole like guided.

Treatment just for you.

18:45

It's made just for you.

So that way you have a better result than the next person next to you.

So we actually treat them as a whole to.

So when you're coming for acupuncture, just realize that we're checking your whole body with check your temperature as well.

When we touch you were checking, is it really hot?

19:02

Are you cold?

If you're cool that means your blood circulation, not doing well.

We check your pulse pulls kind of gives us like an idea of your internal health kind of giving you like Not only just circulation that maybe like, your your organ function, whether it's working properly or your energy.

19:21

Like, are you having enough energy on you fatigue, are you always tired and stressed we could tell certain things, you just taking your pulse.

The tongue actually gives us a more like a map of like what areas do we need to fix your body?

Is it like your lower abdomen that has issues your internal organs somewhere or is more like, you know, blood pressure?

19:42

Because we can tell From the color of the tongue.

Maybe the blood flow is not working?

Well, maybe you're more.

There's more water tension in the body.

So you're not actually, the circulation Is Not Great again so we really work closely with that.

19:58

Yeah.

Cuz I always wondered whenever I went in to see an acupuncturist and then I was like, oh, what are you seeing on my tongue?

I just have, like I'm so fascinated by all this and I'm like, what am I supposed to tell?

You can still they'll feel like one side than the other sometimes so it's not just like Early one side.

20:14

So I guess, different sides, tell different stories or is that what's happening at?

So, each side is a different organs that were actually tracking, you know?

Like, once I would be lung, heart and kidneys are there, right to need.

The other side will be like, more your, your heart liver and your left kidney, and then each kidney actually represents different part of your Vitality, right?

20:41

It shows like you know, how are you doing?

What have Have you been doing?

Have you been partying every night or have you been sleeping and taking care of yourself?

We can kind of tell like what you've been doing with your your whole lifestyle and so that gives us an idea like okay you need to cut back a little you need to de-stress and you do this and that so kind of give you some guidance from there and it kind of gives us an idea of what protocols we should use.

21:05

In our mind, we actually create your protocol as we're talking to you and kind of getting a little bit more information from you, okay?

I know because there's a lot of talk about acupuncture out there, you know, particularly for a lot of us who are over 40, we also have you know, low amh and that sort of thing.

21:22

So do you know any of the data and research around fertility and acupuncture and IVF success, with use of acupuncture?

I guess there are a lot of studies.

I mean there's more studying that needs to be done but like I said, it's very hard to actually get a quantitative like study because we Don't treat everyone the same and not everyone gets the same results using the same protocol.

21:49

Unfortunately, that's the thing about Chinese medicine and we can't really put a number on it, but there are some promising studies out there that have been shown that shows that acupuncture does help with fertility.

According to research that was published in 2016 about the impact of school system, PPM in new, vitro fertilization outcomes.

22:11

Whole system means that we actually do the whole Chinese medicine treatment that's includes like herbal medicine, some dietary restrictions and giving you some advice about what you should do.

Like, Medicaid meditation, massage, you know, all those things that we kind of give you including acupuncture patients undergoing, IVF procedure acupuncture and herbal medicine.

22:37

They have it in three groups control group which only had the idea was no acupuncture.

And then the the other group is ibf with acupuncture on the day of transfer and the last group is the whole TCM approach and the primary outcome of the live birth.

22:54

Was that out of 1069 non donor Cycles?

The whole system TCM or the Chinese medicine approach had greater odds of live birth, compared to the ibf of Rome and the outcomes Library Swiss dot eighty five percent increase.

23:12

So it's actually quite Fascinating research I have here.

Mmm, that's really interesting.

So that's IVF plus the herbals, and, and acupuncture, and all that stuff.

Like, that's the 85% group that they had everything regular, like IVF medications IV, f-- protocols, plus traditional Chinese medicine, protocols.

23:35

Yes, that's correct.

Yeah, so actually adding the whole Pro ch5, she helps with your whole system to function properly.

And that way hopefully you know you were conceived, you have a higher chance to conceive.

And then I've mostly worked with a lot of patient that just get the idea with the IVF with the acupuncture on the day of and that alone actually helps increase the outcome by 40%.

23:59

So, I mean, you know, there's many options out.

There's at least you're getting something when you're actually including acupuncture to it, and maybe some Lifestyle Changes.

Yeah.

So with the, with that, the 85 Sent number.

24:15

Was it like, we're, they getting acupuncture treatments out of a specific specific time frame like, is it weekly?

Is it monthly?

Is it like when they're getting the whole system Chinese medicine approach?

That means that they're coming me and wait, maybe weekly for three months prior to even starting IVF treatments that actually gives you a better outcome than just coming in like, you know sporadically or like monthly or on the month of your IVF treatment.

24:43

Because then it doesn't allow it enough time to actually have another effect in your body.

If you think about it, hormones actually function differently, they're very slow moving is very slow and how your body reacts to hormones.

It releases hormones, very slowly.

24:59

So the same approach comes to acupuncture.

We have two Khloe's, stimulate your body to actually release these hormones, not naturally.

So that way you actually have a better results.

So it's recommended that you come in more often.

Actually doing the whole TCM approach.

25:16

Hmm, yeah, that's so fasting, I had no idea the data was so compelling doing acupuncture and IVF studies that needs to be done.

But I mean, that's one of the studies I was able to find.

I have a bunch more that I'll leave it to you just in case any more updates.

25:33

Yeah, no, that'd be great.

I love to share it with everyone but yeah, I had no idea.

I like I thought it would be less like more like probably like the other number you said more like 30 40%.

I didn't know that it was so compelling for I'm like, well, I guess I better get my act together.

25:54

Maybe I've been doing this all wrong because I don't know that we I don't know that any of us talk about it or any of us know, we kind of you know, cuz I have a so expensive anyway.

You know what I mean?

And I think it's a shame that you know acupuncture and traditional Chinese medicine isn't something that can be covered with.

26:13

You know, regular health plan because it is expensive.

It's an additional cost.

So it does cost more to add it, onto your treatment already.

But, you know, for some of us who are over 40, who are running low on time and options and, you know, like I think about it, I'm like, well, I don't know a round of IVF cost this many dollars.

26:39

Well, maybe if I tack on a little bit then I maybe I can get away with less rounds.

Of IVF and maybe I'll have greater success, but I mean so hard.

It's a tough tough decision to make.

I know, I understand and I usually feel that way for patients to I know that like, you know, cost is a factor because IVF alone is very expensive.

27:01

And, and now you're adding on to acupuncture which mostly fertility acupuncture is not covered by Insurance unfortunately.

But, you know, if you put in the work, you know, it really does help in the long run.

Actually feel your body change as you're using a coupon, cure for a longer period of time.

27:20

Like, my minimum is at least seeing you once a week, right?

But actually, the recommended time would be twice a week for at least three months prior.

Oh, wow.

You know, and I know that's the way more costly.

So, usually, what I do for my patients is, I ask them to come in weekly some funk before their IVF treatments, even start, like, not even like prepping for stimulation cycle, right?

27:41

You want to come in a month before, And I see weekly and I give you homework, I want you to actually stimulate yourself at home by using a moxa moxibustion, is basically like an incense using a Chinese mugwort.

And what you do is, you stimulate certain points.

27:58

I recommend you to use certain that during certain parts of your cycle.

Like let's say, ovulation cycle, use this point during like pre ovulation.

Need these points post ovulation, use these points.

It's like very important about the timing because they're trying to regulate Your hormonal cycle and and trying to regulate it enough.

28:17

So that way when you're actually going through IVF it wouldn't be such a big change or drastic change in your body because when you're going to be hyping yourself up with a lot of hormones already, right?

And then you're going to have a lot of symptoms after going to be nauseous to get to be bloated.

28:33

You're not going to feel great.

And so with the addition of acupuncture with those treatments and the homework, you're going to, you know, steal through it with less issues.

That's my home.

Anyways.

Yeah, that's basically our to recommend.

Yeah, so so are my the listeners on this podcast.

28:53

Typically are 40 and over but there are some that are younger than 40, but let's start with the 40 and over our problems tend to be egg quality problems, low amh.

So what are your recommendations in general for that?

29:10

Like what can we do using the principles of Chinese?

Listen to maybe help with that.

Again, usually when we're working with lowen H or, you know, low ovarian reserve, we actually asked you to come in for a longer period of time.

29:29

I, I know it's a lot of timing, but when you get into the Rhythm, you can feel yourself change.

I worked with a lot of patience, you know, nearing 40 and over 40.

Actually tell them like look, it's going to be a lot of work but if you Put in the work.

You might have some good results because what we're trying to do is not get want to be number of eight.

29:49

You don't need the quantum, you need the quality at this nearing and so if we can get at least one or two golden eggs, you know, or to fertilize to pgs testing, you know, Bear full fare, Bop bear bile.

I can't talk right now, but I think that I need it to be like a very good quality embryo.

30:07

That's all you need to actually get pregnant and what that you use acupuncture to support.

Pregnancy right after transfer.

And hopefully we can get you past the first trimester with no issues and that's are worried you know as trying to get you past that point.

So for these patients I asked for patience, you know really being open-minded and actually going through with the whole Chinese medicine approach for a longer period of time.

30:33

I know timing is a worry for you but in Chinese medicine we believe that as long as you have a period there's still a chance.

It doesn't matter the age.

Age.

It's about whether you still have a period and you haven't gone into menopause and that really just helps a lot.

30:51

And even with acupuncture alone, helps with kind of delaying your menopausal symptoms as well.

So with that, it does help.

So as far as homework goes for like these 40 year olds, what kind of homework would you give them like, like herbs and supplements or dietary changes?

31:07

What are, what are things that you would recommend for the 40 and over?

Yeah, for the 40 and over, I recommend While using for all my patients, I give a handout of things that they should eat and things they should avoid, right?

Because there's a lot of, you know, being in a modern society with instant gratification, we're eating a lot of more processed food and junk food.

31:27

I'm going to have a list of things like, okay, stay away from these food and eat more of these whole you know 30 type of food are keto, type food, that is so much more healthier for you and more home cooking.

That's the best type of foods.

You can control like What types of seasonings are in there less preservative which is great.

31:47

You know II know you did a portion about nutrition before and that actually is on point of what I would actually recommend for you to eat at home and to do as your homework.

The next thing is like, herbal concoctions that I make for you.

I mean, like, I'll be giving you a lot of herbs to kind of help with Vitality kind of helping you get more blood circulation to your ovary.

32:09

So that way your your follicles would actually be better.

Already in order enough to retrieve.

And, of course, moxa moxa is moxibustion like I called it earlier.

I will give you a lot of homework and you'll be doing every day two to three times a day for like months and you know, hopefully we see great results from that.

32:32

So that's what I would recommend.

Hmm.

Are there any over-the-counter supplements?

You recommend?

Like, I know there's some like some people have told me like NAC and I forget what a vitamin D.

My old acupuncturist told me vitamin D and I see and there were a couple other ones.

32:51

I can't remember off the top of my head vitamin C.

I think was another one.

Yeah, those are great.

Like usually what I do is you're probably seeing IVF doctor and they probably told you what type of vitamin C need because they actually did your blood work, which I always say, like, okay, go for it.

33:06

Those are the ones probably need.

But other things are on Case by case, I don't want to give you something that you don't.

Eat.

And then you just, you know, digesting have expensive Pete, right?

It's just not worth it.

I want to make sure that when I see you I'm doing a full diagnosis of what you actually need and herbal supplements.

33:25

Most of those times if I'm working with like little very reserved or a low amh, I automatically give like royal jelly basically.

Royal jelly is the extensive honey that the bees actually make for the queen bee and what does the queen bee do?

33:43

Make A lot of honey bees and she has to be fertile and very strong as though she needs the highest quality of nutrients available.

And this type of honey that they create the royal jelly is full of like nutrients in there to kind of help you keep producing follicles.

34:01

And so that's usually why I recommend the first thing is I okay if you want to work on this, try taking ball.

Jelly for maybe one to two months, prior to IVF and that usually will help you produce more follicles.

Listen and lot a lot of my hand up as well.

And then as far as you talked a little bit about day of transfer acupuncture, what's involved in day of transfer acupuncture?

34:28

Like what do you what what's the goal and what are you trying to do with that protocol?

Yeah, the day of transfer, I'm really focusing on well, pre transfer, I'm really focusing on getting that blood circulation towards your abdomen.

I'm trying to make it so that way your hormone actually feel more relaxed I can usually when a patient comes in, they're very anxious already, right?

34:53

You're very stressed anxious, kind of like nervous about the whole experience.

Maybe it's your first time, maybe use your third or second time.

You know you're just very nervous.

Of course one acupuncture helps to de-stress your right kind of calms you down and then we don't want you to release any more stress hormones.

35:12

At this point we're trying to Me down second is get a lot of blood circulation towards your lower abdomen so that way your your uterus lining could actually hold onto the embryo, little bit better creates a kind of a sticky sensation.

We also recommend for you to eat like a pineapple core during this time and I'll give you the full instructions on that and how to do it on the day of, because I don't want you to overstimulate yourself a pineapple or either, and then third is to Um, your body.

35:43

So that way you don't expel the embryo naturally because your body wants to expel anything that's alien or foreign to you.

And I have what I'm doing is try to during music system response to reduce itself.

Like stop sending information signals and relax.

36:02

This is part of you.

Please site deal, hold on to it.

So that's basically what we're doing for the track for acupuncture.

So pretty, I'm really focusing on your abdomen.

I'm more like helping you with blood circulation, throughout your whole body.

This is, and is it for the transfer day?

36:22

Is it pre transfer and post transfer you to a session or is it?

Or does it is it only after transfer, or is it just before transfer?

Or can you do both like one where you do pre and post and one where you just do pre or one, where you just do Post?

Usually it's recommended that you do your pre acupuncture 24 hours within that 24 hour window.

36:43

So of getting that transfer.

So as long as you do within that 24 hours, you should have some sort of response.

Of course the closer the acupuncture treatment is with your IVF transfer is better.

Of course, it just kind of works better because then we just stimulated you, your hormones are running.

37:03

Well, their circulation flowing.

Well, that's the best time to actually do the transfer and right after transfer, who recommend that within those 24-hour after the transfer, you Another acupuncture treatment to help increase your chances of conceiving.

So of course, you know, the closer it is to after your transfer the better.

37:22

But if you can fit it throughout that like 24 window, it's better than nothing.

So that's what I would usually recommend during that time.

Okay.

And then so I I had a hard time I only end up finding and this was back in like 2018.

37:40

I only end up finding a fertility.

Acupuncture.

Yes, because I think someone else had recommended it to me.

But is there like a place we can go to to find an acupuncturist that specializes in fertility?

Or does it matter?

Do we need one that specializes in fertility?

37:55

Can we just see like a regular Chinese traditional Chinese medicine.

Practitioner, what's the Thought on that?

I'm basically all acupuncture's are qualified to actually treat fertility.

Because again, we treat the body as a whole.

If something is off, we treat that part and somehow your body just Function again very well.

38:15

Right.

But of course, I do recommend a specialist so because at least they kind of understand your struggles.

What you're going through your IVF cycle, your hormonal cycles and how it functions and how, what to expect, especially working with IVF centers.

38:33

So they kind of know what to do and how to do it.

So, if you're going to find a specialist, you know, if acupuncture Point, especially if it's probably better than fine Being just a regular acupuncture is that maybe specializes in like pain or Cancer Treatments, you know, maybe find someone that specializes, it just works better with your schedule helps.

38:54

You understand the IVF cycle because sometimes when you're going through IVF you're really confused with what's going on.

They just kind of give you a calendar of all the shots and the drugs you should be taking.

And when to go in for treatment, you get a little bit scattered, right?

And then sometimes acupuncturists will know where you are in your cycle.

39:12

I've okay, I know.

You're doing, don't worry, you're fine.

Let me do some acupuncture points to help stimulate these hormones to function to supplement.

The drug that you're taking, you know, our or maybe these drugs will have these symptoms that might cause you to get like nausea or bloating, Al you some points to help reduce the bloating as well, you know?

39:32

So it's really nice to go to someone who understands what you're going through and the best place to find.

Those are one acupuncture assesses, they specialize in fertility.

T or two.

You can actually look at the IVF centers that you're going to.

Maybe they have a list of qualified acupuncturist that they work with at least you know that you know they're within the system and they know what the IBS Center is doing and how to incorporate their acupuncture with that or there's another place that you can look at for fertility, acupuncture specialist.

40:05

It's a big one is basically a Bo are m.com for Orcs And I'll send you a link basically, there's a tab with a bunch of acupuncturist from all around the world that specialize in fertility acupuncture and you could, you know, contact them through there, they'll have their contact information and maybe you can find one that's closer to you to work with you.

40:30

And so, you know, just like anything else, there's, you know, always really great people that do their job and there's kind of like a so.

So and so how can we tell if we have a really good acupuncturist?

I think it kind of goes with your gut feeling, right?

40:46

Like if you meet this person and you're like, wow, I really like, you know, her treatment it made me feel really good and she seems like she really cared about me I would say that's pretty good, you know, intuition that maybe this is the right acupuncturist for you.

If you're going to acupuncture is that maybe had you know great experience but you don't have any connection maybe that might not work better for you because then one maybe don't talk to you.

41:11

When they're doing the treatments they don't explain to What's going on a cue, any questions or, you know, knowing what you are going through during your cycle?

I think you always have to have that connection with your practitioner and and have that trust you know, that that goes in between like a like a practitioner and you so that way, you know, that you're in good hands.

41:32

So yeah, that's kind of my thought for that.

Are there any like red flags are there?

Things that we should look out for that?

You're like ooh Maybe not so good.

Well one is like if you don't feel great after the treatment maybe like more aches and pains or just not feeling well during treatment, I would say that's one red flag there.

41:54

Another one is, if they didn't really have too much experience in fertility, like if you talk to them about, you know, certain hormones or soon symptoms that you're going through right now and your cycle, and they don't seem to understand and maybe they are not Specialized in that area.

42:12

And maybe you could find like someone who really understand what you're going through.

So that's my take on that.

I mean most acupuncturists even if they say that they're not specialized in fertility they can probably treat you well just as well they have to look at you as a whole but if you're not feeling any connection with them at all, I would say find someone who does.

42:31

Hmm.

Are there like questions we should ask like when we see an acupuncturist, one would be maybe experience.

And then maybe experience with what you're going through.

Like maybe low amh have they had experienced increasing eme H levels have, they worked with any patients or fertility patients or pregnant patients throughout the whole process.

42:54

That would be the first thing I want to know, maybe like where they came from.

Like maybe they went to a different type of school or maybe they have, like, some experience or externship in these programs that specialize in these.

Like an apology, that'd be great to know as well to know, this one's call if I'd to treat you.

43:16

Yeah.

So those would be great questions to ask.

Okay, no that's fascinating.

I mean like when I first started I had no idea no idea how to find an acupuncturist and honestly, how I found a fertility one was just because someone else had given me a name they're like you should try this.

43:34

We've heard good things.

I'm like, okay, I don't know.

So it's always good to know.

Like if you if maybe you Didn't have a center that really believe strongly or supported the use of acupuncture and you still wanted to try it.

Then these tips I think would be helpful for some people who are kind of made me feel like there on your own and they don't, you don't have, they don't have a way or understand how to find a good acupuncturist.

43:57

So I think it's helpful to share that.

So thanks so much for doing that, no problem.

So for like I said, a lot of us are over 40, is there anything else you recommend for us who are over 40?

Anything we need to consider when we see an acupuncture, say anything we need to ask about or anything.

44:15

We need to bring up as people being over 40 or other treatments other payment.

Yes.

So basically there's other things I recommend, right?

Of course if you see a nutritionist, that's always great.

Kind of get your blood work done that.

44:30

Maybe if you're not going through IVF but you're going for fertility in general, maybe get some blood work done, maybe get some fertility treatments, done, just make sure that you know, maybe your Tubes aren't obstructed.

That's very important because some people don't know and then maybe that's one of the reasons why you're not getting pregnant.

44:47

So getting those checkups done before going to your acupuncturist would be extremely helpful because then it kind of gives us a guide of structurally is there anything wrong, you know with the reproductive system.

Of course not just for women.

We're also looking at this sperm analysis of.

Well, we want to see is your husband creating enough like no?

45:06

Is there a low sperm count or is their morphology issue?

What else can we Do to help with this, you know, because when we have this information, it just makes our questioning a lot easier.

Because when we actually do an initial intake, we asked for all these information.

45:21

Some people come in very unprepared like oh I don't know any symptoms of my period.

Oh yeah, you're right.

I do have a lot of cervical mucus around this time.

All I do have a lot of spotting.

I just realized that you know like coming in with like all this information like your basically your horn.

45:40

I'm own levels, your teeth, TSH levels will be very helpful as well.

We're having a chart of like, you know, your regularity of period.

Like when are your Cycles?

Is it like regular.

Is it your regular having use information?

45:55

Gives us a lot of queries to how we can help you or even like your symptoms when you're having a period?

Do you get a lot of crap?

The debilitating the level of one out of ten?

Is it that bad?

Do you have a lot of low back pain?

Do you have like headaches like hormonal headaches, or Should headaches that correlates with your period because that tells us a lot of information about your hormonal Health as well.

46:17

So getting that work done.

Great.

And then actually seeing nutritionists actually helps you because then they'll kind of tell you like, oh, you're deficient in these levels and maybe take more vitamin D or more by Monsieur your kind of anemic maybe have more iron that really helps out as well but I could puncture skin see that to you but it's nice to have that, you know, in our records.

46:40

And then to help with acupuncture.

It's also great to if you can find a prenatal massage therapist, because if you think about it, our core holds a lot of our vital organs are liver or spleen or reproductive system and our digestive systems all there, but we go get a massage, we always get it for, you know, our limit, but we don't really take care of our abdomen, which is the most important part, it's, you know, so if you can find like a cream, Massage therapists that that actually focused on the abdomen that really helped a lot because what it does, how to reduce a lot of inflammation that happens in your core as well as like maybe some scar tissue that you may have from like trauma or past surgeries.

47:27

It helps to kind of kind of soften it up and kind of loosens the muscles, which really helps with your reproductive health or if you can find it, it might be like a unicorn in the forest but maybe maybe you could find a Teenage song or a dumb abdominal, massage therapist, there different types.

47:46

I know that there's a Chinese medicine type which focused in on the different organs and acupressure points in the abdomen and they massage that area for you to kind of help you function better especially during your period like Cycles, they want to 3 is the best, but there's also I've heard of Mayan massage with your very similar to Chinese, abdominals gosh.

48:07

So if you can find someone who specializes in that, And then you add acupuncture on top.

It's like a really great whole treatment of TCM approach that you can actually do for yourself.

So I'm sure this comes up a lot too.

48:24

But having had acupuncture, the needles are very small and they don't bother me that much some days of my cycle.

I feel them way more than others and sometimes, you know, when you put them a little bit deeper I'm like oh I can definitely feel that.

But for the most part, I don't notice it.

But there Will be some people that are really like needle phobic or really averse to Needles is acupressure and alternative to acupuncture or what do you say for people who maybe are considering or maybe very curious about acupuncture but are somewhat needle fopen her like I don't know about all these needles sticking out of me.

49:00

I hope that they'll get around to it.

I mean, I don't mind that they try like acupressure massage but of course, go to someone who specializes in Prenatal, massage, or prenatal, acupressure massage, I would say, because what happens is they have to know what you're going through and understand which points to use in order to use acupressure.

49:23

Because one, wrong acupressure Point can actually cause a miscarriage or to cause other issues in your body, right?

Like maybe it doesn't cause harm I would say, but it doesn't function better than acupuncture unfortunately because now we're working with the surface level and the muscle So acupuncture Works a little bit deeper because what it does, is it meals into the muscle and then stimulates the muscle with the, a cute like a trigger point.

49:50

And what that does is stimulate the nerve fiber that surrounds the muscle that goes back to your central nervous system and send the signal to your brain.

Like hey, send more of this hormone, we're low on that or send more serotonin.

This Pursuit is more like sad lately or you know a lot of different hormones are functioning better because it stimulates your brain a keeper Sure does work but to a certain extent and so I would hope that like maybe open your mind to the possibility of acupuncture may be asked to acupuncturist these like a thinner needle or thinner gauge of needle and just use like maybe fewer needle.

50:26

You know, maybe we could start off with two needles and then work your way up.

I've had patients that had needle phobia like, which would scream every time I put a needle in, but they work through it.

You know, I just did very gentle manipulation and within In maybe three treatments or for they kind of know what to expect and their body's relaxed at this state because they've been feeling like you know some of the benefits of acupuncture already they in.

50:51

There are no longer afraid after a while it actually takes some time.

It's kind of like mind over body kind of control.

Like you what do you know what to expect is no longer scary.

So I'm hoping that people would you know, get over that but of course if you cannot acupressure is better than nothing.

51:10

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So as far as the needles goat does changing the gauge of the needle affect the treatment.

Like is it stimulating it less?

If you go down to a smaller, oh, I guess if you use a smaller needle, yes, it does have less of an effect.

51:29

It's not as strong simulation, but it's still stimulating something.

It's just going to be slower.

So let's see if I need all like a really thin needle and we should call it like a child.

As needle is very thin, we need a lit in.

You you won't feel too much.

51:45

Most people would still like a light prick or maybe like a little itch, you know?

And it's gone.

But when we're stimulating that, it's not going to be as strong as the usual needles that we use, but it's still stimulating the nervous system.

So that's our goal is to stimulate the nervous system enough where since signal throughout your brain, to work your body better.

52:05

So yes we can use their needles and you will still get some sort of effect and it's better than you.

Having no acupuncture at all.

Yeah, and you can always work upright, like you said, you can work up from like a thinner needle and it's like slowly work up to the larger needle so that maybe like you can get the full effect.

52:23

Yeah.

Actually, we don't even need to use like a thick needle at all.

When you don't need to work up that much too stiff enough to create a simulation effect.

We don't need to use the thicker deals.

We only see that for the athletes who have really thick muscles and really big build, you know, Oh, those are the types that we were actually going to use, like maybe longer or thicker needles.

52:44

Cookie actually need to penetrate the skin.

So their skin is very thick for most of us, especially fertility, our skin is actually, you know, very Supple and, you know, good blood circulation.

There's some elasticity there.

So you won't really feel too much either way.

Yeah, so we don't need a thick needle or anything.

53:01

So, do you find because, you know, since you've worked in fertility, do you find that what you're doing for people under 40 is different than What you're doing for people over 40, does your focus change a little bit, a little bit?

I mean, for younger, I would say because there may be more useful depending what they did in their life, if they were, you know, not treating their younger years.

53:27

Very well then they would Age a little bit more maybe in their 30s.

Right.

So depending what you've been doing we treat you a bit differently so that goes the same for 32 four-year-old.

If you took care of yourself the whole life, you did a lot of Yoga, you worked out the exercise, a lot of meditation then even at your 40, your body still acts as if maybe 30 or 35, maybe just need some help.

53:51

So I've seen like patients who are like 25 and they have a body of like, a 35 year old, right?

So really depends how you treat yourself.

And so, of course, we give a lot of guidance to how to take better care of yourself.

How do, you know, have more Vitality?

So that way we can actually have better effect with acupuncture and We do treat you a little bit differently and most likely for the older patient.

54:14

You need more treatment than the younger folks, but I've had some patients who react to acupuncture really well.

And, you know, within a couple treatments, maybe one or two months, there had great results.

And in that have younger, folks, who I would assume would actually react much better would take longer affect and in have a good result.

54:36

So, depending on the person, you know, it depends on their station on how long we need to treat them in order to feel a result.

And I know it's kind of hard to think off the top of your brain but do you know of any have you had any 40 year olds that you can think of that did really well with acupuncture and maybe IVF or just acupuncture by themselves or anything like that.

54:59

Yeah, I mean one of my longtime patients.

I've worked with for almost about two years.

She's 40 41 when I first saw her and she had low amh.

She had .07 in a Oh my gosh.

55:15

Yeah, that was extremely low.

And at that time, she was freaking out already and I completely understood, right?

So I just told her like okay, you know, this is really low but again, don't count on even H because they do change constantly depending on where you are in the cycle.

55:31

So it's not like a this one number, and that's it, you know, it will change.

So, but it takes some work.

And then I told her like I need to see you almost twice a week for at least a couple months in a row.

To see if we can increase it in a trouble.

55:46

And during that time, she's already going through IVF, she had multiple I/O eyes, failed IUI, she had already three IVF transfers all failed and her embryo count was very low and not high quality already.

So she was going to give it another three more cycle of retrievals and hopefully to get high quality embryos to transfer at that time.

56:08

So I was like okay give me at least two months you know let me work on your a quality first and I saw her religiously two times a week every week for a couple months, and within three months, her aim H levels actually it took a little longer than that because it took some time it was during the holiday, she took some time off it's about like five months before we saw an increase in each level but she worked hard for it and then she was able to retrieve for high-quality embryo pgs tested and Her a major level went to a point zero, seven two point five, which is very impressive for her age, you know?

56:51

It's yeah Ridge, right?

So she was very happy with the results and the next worry was the transfer, you know, whether it's gonna be successful in that she only had four high quality embryos to transfer and I think yes the first embryo transfer was a success and she had a baby boy who is about 2 or 3 years old now and Then she just recently transferred last year as embryo and she just recently gave birth earlier this year to another baby boy.

57:23

My God and so I know it was very heartwarming but she worked really hard on it.

I spent two years on her and we see a result so I always ask for patience.

You know I know it's going to take a lot of time and work but if you work at it I think you'll see some results and what kind of changes did you do?

57:41

Was it like died?

It was it cousin.

Another thing that we should probably think about asleep to.

I'm terrible with sleep.

I don't sleep far enough, but like what kind of changes did you encourage her?

To make, like, what were the things you focused on with her?

Because with a name each of 0.07?

57:57

That's, I mean, you know, that it's pretty low, that's very low, is very concerning for her.

It was basically, she had allergies, she's allergic to cats, she had three cats.

And so, she was taking a lot of allergy medicine in the course, when you're taking a lot of wet, And I see it does drain you a little bit, right?

58:16

And I know that she wasn't sleeping.

She had a lot of congestion.

She was extremely stressed.

She in her past life.

She worked as some sort of consultant.

She was two, she was traveling a lot.

Having a lot of dinners with her clients drinking often smoking often, like social smoking.

58:36

And then, right when she was ready to have a family, she stopped all of that and decide not to work anymore.

And try to spend a Lot of time on herself because she realized that she was she needed a lot of help and a .07 that's a lot of like drain on her.

58:52

No, there's no more Vitality in her.

So I told her she needs to change her diet, she needs to work on a low inflammatory diet, a lot of protein, lot of fiber.

A lot of mock says, well and some herbs.

59:09

And she had a cocktail supplements that her doctor recommended to kind of help increase.

UNH.

Oh, she took all of it religiously and it took months, but she was able to increase it slowly.

So, yes, there is a lot of things that you need changing your lifestyle one that's bleep.

59:25

We do need high quality sleep, in order to feel more Revitalize for our day.

You know, and not only that to feel healthy in general, because when you don't leak your body, it like it's immune system reduces and you can actually feel it.

Like maybe start feeling more sickly in the morning.

59:42

Maybe have more allergies in the The morning, maybe just feel like the Tiga exhausted.

So sleep is very important and so usually I try to ask people to sleep, prior to 11 p.m. if possible.

Because Chinese medicine, there's something called an organ clock.

59:58

A certain times of the day your organ functions, a little bit better right now.

So let's say total clock is lunch time.

You should be eating at that time.

If you missed your lunch, you're not going to be feeling your best in the afternoon, right?

Or So I let him clock is liver time, liver is in charge of detoxification of blood, kind of helpful hormone production, it's a storage system as well.

1:00:23

So if you're constantly sleeping past, eleven watching movies on Netflix, there on your phone, your kind of cutting into the river time when it should be functioning at its prime, when you're sleeping, because that's when your body has enough energy to actually do the circulation, clear out your blood system.

1:00:41

But instead, we're like up and about maybe going clubbing.

Maybe dancing that really takes an effect on your health.

Even like, if you're doing a chronically, it's even worse.

So when you actually change your lifestyle to sleep a lot better, you could feel your body feeling healthier.

1:00:58

You wake up early rejuvenated.

Now ready to start the day?

That's kind of what we're going for and healthy diet.

Also helps reducing processed foods, sugar eliminations.

Great know.

All those things really help as a whole.

Oh yeah.

1:01:13

I'm totally.

Guilty.

I like I go to bed at, like, you're gonna hate this.

I got a bed at like, 2 a.m. like, yeah.

I know, I know, I know, I because I love being up late.

I don't know what it is, but I like, I'm just built for nighttime.

1:01:29

I feel like I just do really like, I just like at 10 p.m. is when I'm like, whoo, let's get going.

Let's do stuff.

Like, you know, so 10:00.

I feel that way.

But I'm like, I know, especially when I'm working.

So When I'm when I actually have to be at work, I have to be up early.

1:01:47

So I don't go to bed that late when I have to actually be at work.

I actually go to bed earlier but I still am not getting the amount of sleep that I think I probably should be getting.

And there was this study that came out and I didn't get to hear all the details about it but apparently it's important dr.

1:02:04

Rahi Victory.

He was he had a little thing about that.

So I'll have to find that to put up and I'll have to find it to read it but yeah, I definitely have to get Sleep.

It's on it's on my list of things to do.

I know we've had this conversation before.

Yeah.

Yeah, I mean always remember.

1:02:21

It's about the quality of sleep.

Not the quantity.

It doesn't matter if you slept for just six hours.

If you had quality sleep, where you slept from 10:30 p.m. to like I do 5 a.m. and you feel fine.

That means lying.

Okay, ending on the person, each person is different.

1:02:37

Some people require eight to nine hours of sleep other people require five to six hours of sleep.

But you know, as long As I have the quality in there, you're still getting some good function going on and you're certainly should be great.

So as long as you feel fine with that quality sleep, that's great.

1:02:54

So, with acupuncture, what I really focus on on, each patient is first thing, I always ask like, how to sleep, you know, like have you been sleeping?

Well, you know, how are you?

How are you feeling?

Are you, are you feeling more tired than usual?

And I'm hearing like, oh yeah, stress.

I couldn't sleep.

I could, I was too anxious, you know, my okay.

1:03:10

I'm going to work on your sleep.

So usually that's the next point, that you think, I really want to make sure that you're sleeping well and your quality of sleep is better because that way you're actually function better and then you have better results.

So it's not every time is not always geared towards just the fertility part, not just geared towards the uterus and ovaries.

1:03:29

It's a bunch of other stuff, too.

To kind of help.

Hopefully bring your body in a better state so that you can have a, I guess better circulation to your ovaries and uterus.

Is that right?

Yeah.

Yeah, that's correct.

1:03:44

Because in Chinese medicine, we treat the person as a whole, not just a separate entity, right?

We're not just treating your ovaries and uterus.

We're treating you as a whole.

And in a result, your uterus and ovaries should function.

Well, when your body is functioning well because then that's how a normal person should react is like, if you're healthy, you will be healthy, you know, there shouldn't be anything other issues, right?

1:04:05

But if like something's wrong, we will fix the body as a whole and that issue would resolve itself because we believe that The person has their own natural ability to heal himself and not require some effort and time.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:04:22

Okay.

I have some questions from our wonderful listeners and let me bring these up.

Are you okay answering these questions?

Can we do that?

Of course.

Okay.

Alright, okay.

1:04:37

Question number one, is it okay to not go weekly?

Go to acupuncture treatments weekly.

So, like I said earlier, it's recommended if you can come in twice a week, that's like this, you know ideal, right?

1:04:54

But if you can come in weekly, that's better.

You will get some result especially if you're very close to doing an IVF tractor, I highly recommend coming in regularly because that way you might actually have a better result during your whole process and not only that less stress going into it.

1:05:09

It's a lot of, you know, mental stress that you're going through when you're going through this process.

And so with acupuncture we help A relief, all that Applause.

Helping you get enough blood circulation, to your abdomen.

So I recommend weekly if possible at a minimum, if you're going through fertility, treatments, or if you're trying to get pregnant until you get the desired result.

1:05:33

And then, if you can't is every other week, okay?

That's still better than nothing or exactly.

It's better than nothing.

If you can come in, maybe once every two weeks or twice a month better than nothing.

I asked for homework, ask for the acupuncturist, to give you something to do at home.

1:05:50

If you cannot come in often, you know, like maybe they'll recommend like, oh yes do more meditation.

You know really focus on meditation or like prenatal meditation that usually is better than nothing.

Or maybe change your diet.

Make sure you're eating tons of, you know, protein and leafy greens.

1:06:07

You know, follow those instructions or mock that I usually tell all my patients to moxa and and do it often how I constantly change the point.

Hang on where they are in the cycle of what I expect them to be in this period of time that they're going to be gone and or, you know, if they're having allergies well, okay, please use this.

1:06:25

Or if you haven't been sleeping, please use these points to help you sleep.

Yeah, yeah, okay.

And then I think you answered this too, but I'll let you answer this one.

How often, and for how long should you do acupuncture prior to IVF again, according to study, its recommended three months in advance before even thinking about About you know, going into IVF or even starting the stimulation medication, that way you have better result it allows your body some time to react to acupuncture and that you function better before you actually go into the whole process because when you're going into a whole stimulation cycle, it's a whirlwind, you know, like time just flies by so fast.

1:07:06

You're at this, you know, appointment that appointment.

It's a lot of things going on for your body and sometimes your body needs, some time to react.

And so, with acupuncture, it makes It's kind of like a smooth transaction, you know, like the transition into it.

So, yes, I recommend at least three months in advance, but if you cannot do three months, at least a month prior minimum, you know, we have to get your body adjusted to acupuncture and the idea of treatment before actually going into it.

1:07:33

Okay, got it.

And when I guess this isn't, that's probably the same if you wanted to freeze your eggs, right?

If you didn't necessarily like need to go through IVF, but you just want to freeze your eggs like that, that would be the same idea to because you still want high quality.

All the eggs when you freeze them, right?

Oh, yeah.

For sure.

Yeah, we want to send all that blood stick circulation towards your ovaries so that way the best follicles survive and will get retrieved.

1:07:56

And so, that's kind of our goal.

So the earlier you come in the better but of course at a minimum one month.

Okay, got it.

All right, and then this question is, should I see an acupuncturist who doesn't specialize in infertility or will it only help with stress?

1:08:12

And then we answer that too, but I'll let you answer that one too.

I mean, like if If you have a connection with this acupuncturist and we seem to be functioning well and having some great results with acupuncture set doesn't specialize in fertility.

That's fine.

You know there because again acupuncturist treat you as a whole we don't treat you as a system or like a part you know?

1:08:31

And so yes if you feel a connection and it's working well for you no problem.

If you have the opportunity or chance to meet acupuncture that specialize in fertility, then sure, go ahead because this person's going to You know what?

You're going to go through.

1:08:47

How are you going to be feeling throughout your cycle or what you get with drugs, you should be taking for how you react to those drugs and how they treat you for that.

Then great.

If you could find a facility specialist that's even greater, but it doesn't really matter if the only acupuncturist near you that specialize in other options can also treat for fertility, so it should be okay, hmm?

1:09:10

Okay, this next question asks about whether or not you should do acupuncture with IUI.

Oh yeah, for sure.

We treat fertility as just fertility.

We're not thinking because in Chinese medicine, we never had IVF in the past.

1:09:25

We never had IUI or that concept of it.

We were just treating you to be at your best healthy state.

So that way, when you're actually going through this process, it should be a higher chance of conceiving.

So, you know, if you're going for IUI and you want to see acupuncturist, that's even better than not seeing acupuncturist, maybe your chances will increase maybe bye.

1:09:46

You know, Thirty to forty percent and I uy in Chinese medicine.

Mine is natural pregnancy if I'm not interested.

Really, you know, so if you think about it, it's there's less obstacles in the way and then it should help out further, especially if you try IUI several times with no success.

1:10:05

Maybe acupuncture is the way to do it and maybe try coming in at least a month prior before doing that.

I UI.

And then there's that the same if it's a medicated IUI like if they're going to do.

Do like hormones and stuff with their IUI.

Same kind of deal, right?

You would still want to come a month ahead of time.

1:10:22

Okay, yes, that's correct.

Alright, this other this next question.

When in your cycle should you schedule visits during IVF again the sooner the better?

So once you know that you're doing IVF I would recommend just finding an acupuncturist or specialized acupuncturist I can help you throughout the process but if you know you're just open to ideas transfer on the day of we have that as well, there's an acupuncturist that can help you with that process as well, but Yes, if you could schedule sooner, maybe a month or three months, prior would be better.

1:11:00

What about like certain days of the cycle?

Like, you know, day day whatever day 5, stimulation day, 10 stimulation, does it matter.

When during your stimulation that you see an acupuncturist?

Again, at that point, I would hope that you're coming in weekly, at least to see.

1:11:18

I can puncture is for at least five weekly, or even like twice a month that Should be fine.

You need to actually see experts at any time during your idea of cycle at all, and they should be able to help you throughout the process.

It's like, it doesn't hurt, you know, acupuncture.

1:11:35

It doesn't cause any side effects or anything, so, yes, you can definitely see acupuncturist any time of your cycle, so it should be fine.

Okay?

So nothing specific.

It's not like, you know, you have better outcomes.

If you come dead, 7, stimulation or whatever.

Now.

1:11:50

Yeah, but it's great.

If you can actually get the idea of Picture on the day of, you know.

So because that way at least you get that 40 40 percent chance.

You know, maybe in might help.

Yeah.

Okay, this next question says, or asks, how do you know if you have a good acupuncturist, I've had two with very different approaches.

1:12:10

Um, like for acupuncturist, there could be many protocols that we can use to kind of help a patient right to achieve the same goal.

We can use like, multiple different Pathways to Treat.

So yes, there could be different thoughts and maybe treatment protocols that they use, but I'm sure that they're using it to achieve the same goal.

1:12:35

So no matter which acupuncturists me decide to choose?

They should all work.

Okay.

This next question, asks about the protocol for low amh or low antral follicle count.

Oh, so, basically a lot of the points that we'll be using for low images, of course, going to be guided towards your ass.

1:12:54

Abdomen, depending where you are in your cycle.

And we basically try to stimulate the ovaries to react better and actually produce higher quality follicles.

So that's basically our guide our kind of our Focus during that time.

1:13:12

So when we want to decrease your image, we're going to be using a lot of the abdomen Point.

Okay, so really geared towards the abdomen ovaries, uterus, try and bring blood.

Oh there.

Yeah, the acupuncture points that are geared towards that area.

1:13:29

Yes, that's correct.

Okay, okay, okay.

Here's a question, any recommendations for acupuncturists in the Los Angeles area?

Do you know anyone in the Los Angeles area?

Oh, I there's a few that I was able to find that.

1:13:44

I actually have some sort of relation with like I kind of know of them never that I met them or anything, but there's a really famous doctor in Pasadena.

His name is Robert chew, he specializes in like cancer patients, as well as fertility had great.

Results I've heard about him and I've actually learned from him from a lot of CPU courses which is continuing education courses, he's very qualified has a lot of experience and so I would actually recommend, you know, calling out to him, he's in LA but if you're actually looking, if you want a list I would recommend going to Abe.

1:14:20

One.org ABO are m dot org and then you can look up California and there was Mist out like sections of California that you can find.

Fertility specialist in the area.

So those are often helpful to find.

Yeah.

Okay.

Alright, the next question, is recommended acupuncture sessions per week.

1:14:39

You said to write to is optimal.

Yes, yes, to is optimal.

If they can't afford it, I know it's very expensive and I know that when you're going through IVF, it's financially hard, right?

So at least weekly, at that point, okay?

Especially when you're nearing your IVF cycle as possible, okay?

1:14:58

And then this Next question, is it more effective to pair acupuncture with Chinese herbs?

Yes, because now you're using the whole TCM approach or traditional Chinese medicine approach you using their whole advice, which is like the herbal concoctions, concoctions that they make, which the supplement, they'll give you a dietary, you know, guidance acupuncture.

1:15:21

Sometimes they'll even include like abdominal massage.

It's the whole approach and you should actually have a higher chance of conceiving with that.

According Is very that's I said back into it.

Yeah, 60s.

It shows like a higher percentage than if you were just to get acupuncture or without acupuncture and then, how is acupuncture different for retrieval versus transfer prep?

1:15:45

The retrieval is basically, we're really focusing on ovaries and blood circulation.

And we're trying to get your ovaries to produce high-quality follicles, to retrieve and so yes.

We also want to make sure that your stress levels are low during this time because stress causes your reproductive system to kind of shut down.

1:16:05

And so we're trying to do a lot of things.

Your whole body approach, kind of make sure that your body's functioning well to create high quality eggs.

And then for transfers, we're really focusing on the whole body circulation, to make sure that it's running properly, you're lining is going to be thick and full and Luscious.

1:16:25

So that way, it creates a beautiful nest for that.

See if You're going to transfer.

So it's like a different approach, but the same as well.

Because then, again, we're treating as a whole and not just sections of your body or even cycle.

Yeah.

1:16:41

Okay.

And then should, we drink red date, and goji berry tea, post period to nourish back, the blood on.

It really depends on the person's Constitution and I'll leave that to the your acupuncturist to decide because there's some people that cannot take red dates Or pomegranate juice.

1:17:00

Maybe there is too thick or too sweet for them or you know, maybe their stomach can handle it.

There's a lot of dietary restrictions sometimes out there and so maybe they can actually offer you another alternative to kind of help you blood.

Build, basically the holy call it or but blood building herbs.

1:17:20

We actually have herbal supplements to kind of help with what they're lining as well as like, kind of the punishing your blood supply after Period.

That's a great way to do it.

And another thing that I usually recommend for non vegetarian and vegan is bone broth.

1:17:39

Bone broth is like amazing, tonic that anybody can take to help boost their immune system, as well as their blood building effect.

And so, if you can drink bone broth often and have it like a good source that would actually recommend, you're doing that very often as well because that actually helps to build bone and blood and when you build bone, you build blood as well.

1:18:01

So it has like a correlation to each other and great connection.

So that's what I would recommend and if she should you mention like problems like during your period like if you know you notice more clotting is that an issue with blood is that something you need to talk about?

1:18:17

Oh yes.

For when you actually have your consult with your acupuncturist whether it's prior to your treatment or your initial consultation.

You always they always ask about like the cycle.

How is it?

Are you bleeding a lot?

Is it really heavy?

How many days do you bleach for?

1:18:33

Is it quality?

Do you have these symptoms?

Those are very important questions that we normally asked.

So we know how your cycle is actually functioning so if you're actually very clotted that means that you're lining is not shedding properly.

We have to help you shed it properly.

1:18:49

So that way your new lining that actually grows is a lot much, much more Fuller and thicker and has better blood circulation towards it.

So that way, it's easier chance.

Are you to conceive?

So there's a lot of things that are that's in our mind, while we're actually hearing these, you know, symptoms that you have during the period, your PMS, or do you have moodiness?

1:19:08

Are you angry all the time during this time?

Are you craving for sweets?

Are you craving salty?

Those are very important for us Minor Details but very helpful for your treatment as well.

So yes, tell that to your acupuncturist and they will help you guide you through it, okay?

Cupping is it an added benefit to acupuncture?

1:19:27

If you do cupping in acupuncture, Together.

Yes, but it depends on where you are in your cycle and whether you had your transfer or IUI.

So usually, after transfer and I ey, we will not touch your body with any cup.

Fortunately, I know that it's cupping is it feels great, but we do not want to simulate any points because cupping is quite a large surface area and maybe we don't want to like stimulate certain points because it could cause miscarriage or they can cause unlike other issues during that.

1:19:58

Time because your hormones are kind of like functioning.

Well during this time inside your blood circulation increases to fold and then so if with minor stimulation, you can actually cause something to happen.

So, during that time, I don't recommend cutting but acupuncture is okay to to do, but make sure that your acupuncturist knows that you just finish IUI or ibf.

1:20:22

Okay.

Because then they'll select points that are pregnancy safe.

That's very important.

But yeah, cupping is very good.

I said, maybe right after your period or ovulation time because it makes the process a little bit cuter kind of released a lot of muscles in your lower abdomen as well as your lower back.

1:20:40

So that way you won't feel too much pain or tightness during that time.

So that's great to do as well.

But again make sure your expert just knows where you are in your cycle and what you just did.

Okay, a couple more questions.

I know we're running out of time.

Thank you for sticking with me.

1:20:59

We start, okay.

We kind of answered this, how to search for a good trustworthy acupuncturist.

I doubt mine, I think.

If you doubt them like you were saying, you want to have a good relationship with them if you're not feeling right with them.

Then it's you kind of just gotta meet a new one and see if you drive is that right?

1:21:16

Yeah I think it's kind of like when you're going to shop for like the OB or a doctor write it, you want to make sure that you have some sort of trust between them and Communications great and if like you know, doesn't You should go for a second opinion to someone else.

1:21:31

Same with acupuncturist, we're just as, like, other doctors, if you feel like this person is probably, you know, not qualified to treat you or you feel like there's no connection, maybe look for a second opinion.

Maybe actually feel better towards this other person.

You know maybe that might work better for you and then you feel like you're taking care of because the most important thing is that you're not stressing throughout this whole process and that you're feeling, you know, well taken care of during this time because you're going to be They're vulnerable.

1:22:00

You're telling them a lot of vulnerable information so this is very good to share with someone you trust.

So yes, I would definitely do not.

Yeah yeah okay.

Should I continue with acupuncture after transfer?

1:22:17

Yes I recommend it at least until past your first.

Trimester if your transfer was successful you know and you know most of this time you You like certain things around your body that you're not sure if I feel some cramping some bloating back pain, headaches, nausea that's hormone-related.

1:22:37

Yes, go see a doctor acupuncturist bacon, help me with some of those symptoms, those maybe pregnancy signs or could be progesterone and the hormones that you might be taking, but we help guide you through it.

So that way it's a smooth process and hopefully guide you past the first trimester because once you're past that first, trimester the chances of you of your miscarriage is a lot lower.

1:22:58

Lower and at that point we should be as worried, right?

And then so after that, I would recommend coming in monthly just for maintenance after your first trimester that way the acupuncturist check up on, you see if you need anything else and whether they help you further and even all the way through your labor, if you need to be induced, let's say like your doctor saying, you know, maybe it's time soon.

1:23:22

Maybe we should look into induction and you don't want you know, to take a chemical induction you More of a natural coach now.

Acupuncture can help you with that as well.

And even after you give birth and you want more healing or maybe helping you with lactation come to acupuncturist, we could help you with that as well.

1:23:43

So throughout the whole women, okay?

Michael we can help you through that, okay?

Okay, I think this is the last one.

And so the question is, are there any acupressure points we can do at home?

Yes, and it depends on what you want to achieve and where you are in your cycle.

1:24:04

Again there's certain acupuncture or acupressure points that are forbidden in acupuncture to use when you're conceiving.

Or when you're trying let's say like you know, post ovulation, these points are a No-No to use because one they can actually cause a miscarriage because they're actually really strong stimulating points.

1:24:24

One of those points would be the one on your between your index finger and your thumb.

It's a kind of like the meaty part of your, the webbing of your hand and that one, the very famous point.

It's, it's great for headaches, for nausea, for Digestive issues, bloating pain is wonderful, but do not use it after.

1:24:44

You've tried that month, like whether it's intercourse IVF or IUI do not press those points, or there's certain points on your ankles that you should be pressing as well when you're trying to conceive.

So when you go to like a foot massage, Lace or massage therapists.

1:25:00

Make sure that they know that you're going through like this or fertility treatments, they can avoid those areas because that's very important, not to press during time even the nice points right?

Above your shoulders, where, you know, you have a lot of meditation.

Those points are actually known as actually, cause miscarriage as well.

1:25:16

So again, avoid those points.

So unfortunately, I tell most people do not get a massage when you're trying to conceive.

Specially if like, you know, post ovulation post IUI in Transfer don't get a massage, unless you're going to a prenatal massage therapist because they know how to massage the right areas.

1:25:37

Okay.

Oh my gosh, we went through so much.

So if anyone wants to find you if anyone wants to come see you if they want more information from you.

How do they reach you?

How do they connect with you?

Yeah, I have an Instagram though.

I don't post much.

1:25:52

Sorry about that.

I'm just really lazy.

I still respond.

It's a doctor Mimi a key.

That's ERM, I am IA.

See, you can reach me through there or you can find me at better balance.

Acupuncture, our website is obtain better balance.com and you can reach us there.

1:26:09

Send us emails and I can respond as well.

But yeah, feel free to and don't hesitate to reach out to us for more information.

Yeah.

No, that's so wonderful.

Thank you so much for sharing.

All this information.

I mean, like I know, starting this process, I had no idea what was going on and honestly, I still don't.

1:26:28

I'm forced.

Then I finished four cycles and I still have no idea what's going on and there's so much to learn and I think there's it's nice to have different options to try specially.

Like I said for us who are over 40 you know time like you said is not always on our side and sometimes neither are our numbers.

1:26:47

And with so little control or what we feel like is so little control, you know, anything we can try and do to improve our chances.

So we can try and do feel like we can control and do to kind of improve our chances of conceiving, I think is a nice option.

1:27:08

So thank you so much for sharing, all this information.

I'm sure there will be more questions and I'm sure there are more topics we can talk about.

So hopefully you'll come back and we'll talk more about acupuncture and fertility and how traditional Chinese medicine can help us conceived.

1:27:24

Sure, thank you for having me.

I'm humbled that you and asked and I this is The opportunity to just share the medicine and hopefully people will be more open minded to try it.

Yes.

Yes for sure.

Well I'm since I've kept you a little longer than we had planned thank you so much for sticking around.

1:27:41

I'm gonna let you go but we'll definitely talk soon.

And if anyone has questions they'll reach out to you and then the links that we talked about, I'll link them to the show and I'll put them on the links in my bio so people have access to that as well.

So thank you so much again I really appreciate your time.

1:27:58

Time and I'll talk to you soon.

Okay.

Thank you for having me and I'll send them right over.

Have a great day.

I want to thank you for tuning in today.

I hope you found today's episode helpful.

If you want to question or topic covered in future episodes, please feel free to reach out to me on Instagram at 40 and fertile, make sure you hit the Subscribe button for alerts and you episodes.

1:28:22

And I hope to see you back again soon.